At the risk of offending the Spanish

[mandragora]

Happy Birthday Gibraltar.

I'm ridiculously amused by the current hoohah surrounding the celebrations for the 300 years of British sovereignty over Gibraltar.

This morning on the Today programme there was an interview with a man whose ancestors were displaced from Gibraltar 300 years ago when the British took the Rock from the Spanish. He was bemoaning and bewailing and, really, one could have gained the impression that his life was totally ruined by this event. That happened 300 years ago. Rather before he was born, I suspect.

I can understand why the Spanish are, hmm, irritated at having this British possession stuck just off the Spanish coast by La Linea, but. If they want to persuade the Gibraltarians to change their minds and decide that they want to be Spanish rather than British throwing a temper tantrum really isn't the way to win friends and influence people. Plus, every time the Spanish have a hissy fit over Gibraltar being British I am irresistably reminded of the fact that Spain 'owns' two enclaves in Morocco which they have no intention of handing back. Hypocritical, much?

The irony is that Britain has now held sovereignty over Gibraltar for longer than Spain did, the Spanish being quick to claim it from the Moors when Arab power in the region started to fail. Britain wanted the Rock because of its immense strategic value at a time when British naval power was starting to increase. So, Britain marched in and booted the Spaniards out. That included the local civilian population who supported the military garrison. The trouble was that you couldn't run a military base in those days without a local civilian population and obviously the locals, who were unsurprisingly resentful as all hell weren't going to oblige.

So, the British hit on a Cunning Plan, and invited the Genoese (who were great travellers in those days) to come and settle on Gibraltar. Which they duly did. As a result the Gibraltarians are not of Spanish descent (although inevitably many of them have Spanish blood, their ancestors having intermingled with the Spanish over the centuries). They self identify, very proudly, as being British. The combination of Genoese and British culture has produced a curious amalgam of influences. Spanish is definitely there, of course. But they are most certainly not Spanish.

Feelings against Spain still run high. Many of them suffered greatly under Franco, when Gibraltar was cut off from Spain for 25 years. The only way out of Gib in those days was by a direct flight (which steered well clear of Spanish territory) to Britain or the ferry to Morocco. Even today there are Gibraltarians in their sixties and seventies who have never been off the Rock in their entire lives. The mind boggles.

I lived in Gib for a while. Long enough to become thoroughly annoyed at Spain's attitude to the Rock. And I love Spain, think that the Spanish people are, for the most part, warm, welcoming and hospitable with a cultural history to die for.

Nowadays Spain settles for petty harassment at the border with Spain. Petty, but extremely annoying. Waiting in the queue for 2 to 3 hours to drive across to Spain to go shopping on a Saturday is not much fun. Even with the loos thoughtfully positioned nearby in Gibraltar in anticipation of the long wait. Other annoyances include the fact that in Spain there aren't any signposts to Gibraltar until one is actually at Gibraltar. Likewise, if one posts a letter in Spain to Gibraltar it will take ages to get there because the letter is sent to the UK first and from there to Gibraltar.
Because Gibraltar doesn't exist, you see. Not in Spain, anyway.

Sigh.

As Gibraltar is no longer of prime strategic importance (although strategically significant, certainly) it would be in Spain's interests to woo Gibraltar, persuade them to become Spanish. Bullying demonstrably won't work. What a pity the Spanish don't seem to have learnt that lesson. Because in these post-colonial days the rule very firmly is that the people of the colony get to determine what they want, not what the mother country wants.

No, of course Britain wouldn't want or dream of seizing Gibraltar nowadays. But back then Spain was An Enemy and, well, the times were different. The whole bloody world was different. *g*

And what the people of Gibraltar want, overwhelmingly so, is to remain British.

Comments

Choices, choices

[fides.livejournal.com]

The article on the BBC site recently suggested they really wouldn't mind becoming independant. The slight problem there is that Spain has a ye ancient treaty which says if the UK ever move out then they get first dibs before we can offer sovereignty to anyone else including self-sovereignty. We of course promised in their constitution that we wouldn't hand them over to another country if they don't want to go - and given the choice between the UK and Spain they are are sticking with the UK.

Personally I am waiting for the "Moors" to demand Granada back ;-)

[suilven.livejournal.com]

Came across your entry by chance through a link from Ann Tara (http://www.livejournal.com/~ann_tara) to Twistedchick (http://www.livejournal.com/users/twistedchick). Really interested by your comment re Spain & the UK. Normally I might find myself on the side of the perceived underdog, possibly Spain here, BUT in this case I have to say that I find myself thinking that Spain is LOOKING for insult and trouble. And we all know that those who look for trouble, insult and hurt, find it. Watch this space for a deteriorating situation in diplomatic relations between Spain & the UK. I can only think that this is the new government with an axe to grind over Iraq and a population to impress. I really think they have made a bad move today. Time will tell but in the meantime, I am not too impressed with Spain. Can't help thinking it is posturing of the worst kind. Thanks for the post!

Re: Choices, choices

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

The article on the BBC site recently suggested they really wouldn't mind becoming independant

Hmm, I would say that it's not as simple as that. Bear in mind that everything the Gibraltarians say is with an eye to ensuring that they're not handed over to Spanish sovereignty. So, they play the game to ensure they remain British. Gibraltar receives a substantial chunck of funding from Britain and they don't want to give that up without obtaining funding from elsewhere.

Personally I am waiting for the "Moors" to demand Granada back ;-)

*g* Oh yeah. I'm just picturing the reaction to that...

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty certain that the underdog is Gibraltar, bearing in mind there's only 20,000 of them against 40 million Spaniards and 55 million Brits. *g*

Seriously, though, my view is that the Gibraltarians should be allowed to determine for themselves what they want and Spain is making that very difficult. If Spain was reasonable, for example, the option of complete independence for Gibraltar would be on the table. But it isn't because of Spain's attitude. Mind you, as I wrote in my response to the comment above I'm not so certain that the Gibraltarians really want complete independence from Britain as that would mean forgoing British funding, which is needed to keep the economy going.

I agree with you that this is all posturing by the new Spanish Government. The trouble is, it's exactly the same sort of rhetoric as was espoused by the old Spanish Government.

Sigh.

[suilven.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty certain that the underdog is Gibraltar, bearing in mind there's only 20,000 of them against 40 million Spaniards and 55 million Brits. *g*
LOL Too true. Poor Gibraltarians. I forgot about them. You are absolutely right of course.

As for the same old rhetoric. Yes. Sadly we have been here before although this itme they seem not to be hiding behind any diplomatic language!

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Because Gibraltar doesn't exist, you see. Not in Spain, anyway.

And what the people of Gibraltar want, overwhelmingly so, is to remain British.

Well, quite. So as they want to be British, it seems to me that the fact that Gibraltar is treated as if it doesn't exist in Spain is perfectly reasonable: as you pointed out, the inhabitants of Gibraltar don't want to be treated as if they were part of Spain. Can't have it both ways...

[britta54.livejournal.com]

Fascinating stuff, as usual, from you. I learn so much from people, and since I currently have no television, I rely on alternate news sources. However, those sources haven't even mentioned Gibraltar! Still, that shouldn't surprise me given where I live.

Thank you for reminding me there ARE places in the world other than California.

$:-)

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you see the difficulty is that Spain doesn't just pretend that Gibraltar doesn't exist but it actively goes out of its way to make life difficult for Gibraltar's inhabitants. I wrote about the border controls, for example. As Gibraltar is part of the EU there aren't meant to be the kind of border controls that Spain imposes on Gibraltar but as the UK hasn't signed up for Schengen and Gibraltar is British territory the Spanish can get away with harassment.

Because of its geographical location Gibraltar is inevitably dependent on Spain for certain things. Such as telephone connections. Spain won't allow Gibraltar to instal as many as it wants, which affects Gibraltarian business.

Another problem - for Spain - is that because Gibraltar doesn't exist it's possible for Gibraltarians to commit crimes in Spain, dash back to Gibraltar and as long as they don't venture into Spain again never be tried for those crimes. I know someone who was up on rape charges in Spain, for example, but was sitting pretty in Gibraltar secure in the knowledge that he'd never be brought to justice. I don't think that this is in the public interest myself.

Likewise Spain won't recognise orders of the Gibraltar courts, which means that there can be a problem in Gibraltarians enforcing contracts against Spanish nationals.

There are all sorts of ramnifications from Spain's attitude and given that Spain wants Gibraltar back Spanish tactics strike me as idiotic.

Every time Spain does something like this it only increases Gibraltar's sense of grievance and increases their determination to not be Spanish. You have to bear in mind that Gibraltarians' suffering under Franco was immense. If it hadn't been for Morocco Gibraltarians would have starved, for example. Yes, Franco was a dictator who also made his own people suffer but what a pity that modern, democratic Spain is still so petty when it comes to Gibraltar.

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised that Gibraltar hasn't been mentioned given that it's a tiny place. The 300th anniversary was on the main news in Britain, given Gibraltar's status, though.

I know what you mean about learning so much from people on LJ. For example I know a lot more about US politics than I used to thanks to LJ. Well, that and The West Wing! *g*

No TV, hmm. Not certain how I'd cope without one. Too dependent, that's me.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Well, the 30 000 people living on Gibraltar, now both Britain and Spain are part of the EU, can retain their British nationality and still live and work in Spain. Which is, as I recall, pretty much what the Spanish government proposed back in the late 1990s - that Gibraltar should become a Spanish province with special status within the EU and justice system and its current tax privileges - and Gibraltarians should have the right to retention of British nationality: I absolutely agree no one should be forced to change their nationality/citizenship against their will. But they do live in Spain, they just want not to be subject to Spanish law. What it currently amounts to is a classic have-your-cake-and-eat-it situation: which does tend to inspire pettiness in others.

[laurakaye.livejournal.com]

Heh. Funny that you should post about Gibraltar, just as Thermidor and Shalott have got me avidly reading the sailslash, where it is by necessity very often discussed...

*sends hugs across the sea*

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

Which is, as I recall, pretty much what the Spanish government proposed back in the late 1990s - that Gibraltar should become a Spanish province with special status within the EU and justice system and its current tax privileges - and Gibraltarians should have the right to retention of British nationality

I'm afraid that your recollection is inaccurate. What was proposed was that Gibraltar would be under joint sovereignty for 50 years before being incorporated into Spain as an autonomous region similar to the Basque Country (and of course there's the 'little' problem of a substantial proportion of that region wanting independence) and Catalonia. The proposals were rejected by the British Government, not the Gibraltarians. Although obviously the Gibraltarians were not in favour of the proposals.

The Gibraltarians do not live in Spain. They live in territory that is located just off Spain. One could say the same about Portugal, for example, and there's a clearer border between Gibraltar and Spain than Portugal and Spain. The difference is that Gibraltar is tiny, but it is, strictly speaking, a separate land mass that is linked by a land bridge.

The Gibraltarians may choose one day to become part of Spain, that's up to them. In the meantime they choose to be subject to British law rather than Spanish, as is their right. You seem to have a lack of sympathy for a people who have been beseiged and bedevilled in the past, plus a lack of empathy with their point of view.

They are not Spanish, have never been Spanish, at present do not want to be Spanish. Why should they be forced to be simply because of geographical location, which is what you're implying?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

They are not Spanish, have never been Spanish, at present do not want to be Spanish. Why should they be forced to be simply because of geographical location, which is what you're implying?

In fact what I am thinking is this:

Spain and Britain are both part of a large political entity called the EU. What you currently have with Gibraltar is a small island being administered long distance by one part of the EU, when another part of the EU is right next door. In fifty years time, this is going to look even sillier than it does right now.

One could say the same about Portugal, for example, and there's a clearer border between Gibraltar and Spain than Portugal and Spain.

Hardly, except in the simplistic terms of physical geography. (There is a small island off the coast of Edinburgh called Cramond, that's linked by a tidal causeway: you could argue that this island ought to have independence from Edinburgh because it's geographically separate from Edinburgh the majority of the time, but it's not really a terribly strong argument, is it?)

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

Spain and Britain are both part of a large political entity called the EU. What you currently have with Gibraltar is a small island being administered long distance by one part of the EU, when another part of the EU is right next door. In fifty years time, this is going to look even sillier than it does right now.

Yes, they are now both part of the EU. This is a recent development. Gibraltar has been administered by Britain for 300 years. They want to continue to be so administered.

What the Gibraltarians want is to continue to be administered by a country, which has laws, customs and procedures that are *very* much closer to theirs, being based on those of Britain, than those of Spain. And, knowing what I do about Spanish law as compared to British when it comes to the law I can hardly blame them.

What you are saying is that what they want doesn't matter. They are a small country and therefore the wishes of the larger should be paramount. Seems like you think that might is right in this case.

As for the EU, well it's not doing a lot to force Spain to allow the Gibraltarians their full rights in accordance with EU law. You know, the right to freely cross borders, free trade, respect for one another's laws. Little things like that. Spain's tactics are, purely and simply, those of the bully. If they want to persuade Gibraltar to become part of Spain they are going exactly the wrong way about it. Unless, of course, you think that the small, weak, underdog should just roll over to the bigger force.

It is up to the Gibraltarians, not the Spanish, to decide by whom they want to be administered. That is the overriding principle in these post-colonial days that is accepted by civilised people. Within which I would normally classify the Spanish. Alas, not in the case of Gibraltar.

(There is a small island off the coast of Edinburgh called Cramond, that's linked by a tidal causeway: you could argue that this island ought to have independence from Edinburgh because it's geographically separate from Edinburgh the majority of the time, but it's not really a terribly strong argument, is it?)

If the islanders wanted it, yes. Just like if the Scots want to opt out of the UK, in spite of the large (in British terms) border between Scotland and England. Or are you suggesting that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to opt for independence? After all, Scotland is a much smaller country than England population-wise. Surely therefore England's wishes should be paramount (assuming England wanted Scotland to remain within the UK, of course)? Like the Spanish in the case of Gibraltar.

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

*g* Well, I think that the fact that Gibraltar is currently celebrating 300 years of British rule (and the fact that they're celebrating it is amazing in itself) may have had a tad to do with my Gibraltar post ;)

But yes, when it comes to Gibraltar I'm you man, er, woman *g* in that I have some personal knowledge of the place.

I myself am currently deep in the throes of Hornblower love. For the TV series, that is, not the books. Why? In a word, Archie. Sigh. (Love Horatio as played by Ioan, too, of course)

I do have a soft spot for sailslash as a whole, mind you. Mmmm, Pirates. Master and Commander. Yum!

[laurakaye.livejournal.com]

Archie is lovely, in that sort of Victorian-poet way, but the man I want to board MY vessel is Captain Pellew. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Also reading the M&C books, which I LOVE. I keep thinking "who wrote that one really good preslash where XYZ happens?" and remembering that no, that was part of the canon. *happy sigh*

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

Giggle. I think Archie pre-dates the Victorian poets a bit. Besides he's not consumptive ;)

I once spent a pleasant evening drinking with Robert Lindsay, after I'd seen him perform in a play. He's a nice bloke and a damn good actor.

And, yes, on the M&C books.